Tänzer, a "ninja" game (Dev Diary thread)

[mix256]

A stage select (even rudimentary) would be needed for debugging though, right?

Actually one benefit of implementing menus early is that it makes it easier to implement stuff you'll need while making the game.

I've got debug stage select with simple button presses, so this is just all waste.
Yeah, about menus, I've been postponing the Start and Options menu for too long now. This will be be focus after the stage select.

While we're at it, a small poll:
Since the game won't have save capabilities you will need to get into the options to change the button config to your liking, at every reboot.
So, on a three button controller, how would you like the default yo be? Any different to a 6 button?
Right now I have:
A - Slash
B - Jump
C - Transmutation Attack
Start - Cycle Selected Transmutation Attack

[Miquel]

While waiting for a demo to test it in a definitely manner: ABC buttons sounds just right, but start button, since you are using start button for other proposes, no pause then? sounds annoying...

[mix256]

no pause then? sounds annoying...

Been thinking about that a lot. But I though most have a 6 button pad?
So then start will be pausing and "x" do the special attack, I was thinking.

[Miquel]

Here in Europe I think most MD had a 3 button pad, only in the late life of MD 6 button pad was introduced along with MD2.

Probably with the ones that had survived the ratio of 6 button is increased, still I don't think they are majority.

Have you think of using up+button to change weapon? or long pressing a button... or pressing two buttons... or START+button like I do to simulate XYZ.

Or using the pause menu itself to change weapon (if it's fast loading), you can use a different button combination for that intend, distinct that the ones used to navigate through the menu.

[mix256]

I have though about having a pause menu to select special attack, but I like the simplicity of one-button selection.
Seeing that we have a lot of stop and game play at the moment in the game, I might revisit that option.

"All" the button combos are already in use, I guess:
Up/down = Determines the slash direction when slashing (and you press that first before pressing the slash button)
A = slash (rapid-slashes when held)
B = jump (jump height is determined by holding it)
C = Special Attack (need to be instant, since it's used as a defensive way-out-attack a lot of times as well)
And you can slash when jumping so that rules out A+B as well. And A+C is impossible to press on a standard pad as well as any combination with button+Start, right? You need to change the attack quite instantly as times as well, so it needs to be easily accessed.
One a 6 pad, I now have change-special on Y and special-attack on X. You just need to move the thumb very little to access all of the controls.

To be honest, the more I think about it the lesser the pause functionality is needed. Unless you're in a boss fight, it takes a second to clear the screen of enemies then you can just leave the main char standing there. And if you have a 6 button one you have the pause as well as buttons for everything needed closely to each other, a good reason to be buying one.

[Sik]

When I saw "Cycle Selected Transmutation Attack" I honestly thought it meant being able to change it while paused (like Revenge of Shinobi does for the ninjitsu). I'd imagine you wouldn't be changing the attack often.

Then the 6-button controller could be used as an enhancement to let you change it without having to pause the game :​P


EDIT: and I always prefer C as jump. Fight me :​v

[Miquel]

That seems to me the best option on 3 button pad:

A-down event => slash begin
B-down event => jump begin
C-up event with C-counter less than a second=> special attack
C-up event with C-counter more than a second=> change special attack
Start => pause

(C-counter is just a frame counter on how many frames C-down is true)

A and B are just a matter of preference, I like this way just like Mario series.

By events I don't mean call-backs but is enough two variables (bit-array like button vars) that only become active when sequences up->down or down->up are detected.

Up and down event for buttons should be given to you by the engine systematically each frame (I don't know how SGDK works in this regard but it should have it).

[mix256]

C-up event with C-counter less than a second=> special attack
C-up event with C-counter more than a second=> change special attack
Start => pause

When I saw "Cycle Selected Transmutation Attack" I honestly thought it meant being able to change it while paused (like Revenge of Shinobi does for the ninjitsu). I'd imagine you wouldn't be changing the attack often.

Yeah, start button having pause with a special attack selection is becoming more of reality for every minute. Especially for being clear about how things work. I want the game to be self explanatory, and having special combos for simple controls goes against that.
With a selection menu I can show that the option to change the attack exist, even when there is no action available. Which is a bit of a problem with the one-button selection that I have now.
So, the "only" problem with this is the UI and layout to handle it. But I think I have an idea of how it should look.

A and B are just a matter of preference, I like this way just like Mario series.

EDIT: and I always prefer C as jump. Fight me :​v

Ah, this is the major issue here.
SRAM would gave been sooo handy.
I think I need to ways to change it, first being predefined controls and second being able to change the button manually.
Start -> Down -> Options -> Controls -> Predefined -> "ACB" (or whatever) is 6 to 8 presses.
Start -> Down -> Options -> Controls -> Down -> Jump -> C is 7 to 9 presses.
I guess button assignments need to be in the Pause menu as well? (which kind of ruins my UI ideas from above...)

Thanks a lot guys!

[Sik]

I mean, going into the options menu every time was the norm :​v And people may want to change other stuff anyway (e.g. if you include a difficulty setting you can be sure that several players will change the default), once you consider that going into the menu to change controls isn't that much of a stretch.

[mix256]

I mean, going into the options menu every time was the norm :​v And people may want to change other stuff anyway (e.g. if you include a difficulty setting you can be sure that several players will change the default), once you consider that going into the menu to change controls isn't that much of a stretch.

True, so having the default as "I" want it is ok then, I guess.

[Chilly Willy]

You could always make START a qualifier for the other buttons. START+A = pause, START+B = change specials one direction, START+C = change specials the other way. Being able to shift special attacks/weapons both ways allows for quickly flipping between specials, whereas only having one means having to cycle through them all to get back to the special you just cycled away from.

Also, I don't see a problem with making 6 button required, or at least desirable. They're easy to get and cheap. About the only concern I have for 6 button pads is that some don't properly support the MODE button - they either don't have one, or it's not readable. So if you use the MODE button, be sure to warn folks in the instruction manual.

[mix256]

You could always make START a qualifier for the other buttons. START+A = pause, START+B = change specials one direction, START+C = change specials the other way.

That's a great idea, didn't think about that!
But I think I'm going for the start-menu option, since it's easy to understand and won't require any explanation, most likely.

[Miquel]

I guess button assignments need to be in the Pause menu as well? (which kind of ruins my UI ideas from above...)

Let's throw more gasoline to the fire:
It depends on the target audience, but if you are considering youngsters it's better to select from a few available pre-configurations than assign buttons. Also if you objective is only pc users is ok to assign buttons. Since I know you are going to say that you target is everyone then it's preferable to go for the pre-configurations.

[Miquel]

... or START+button like I do to simulate XYZ.

And A+C is impossible to press on a standard pad as well as any combination with button+Start, right?

You could always make START a qualifier for the other buttons.

I don't have 3button pad at hand so I can say, but can anyone test if:

While pushing start with the tip of the thumb is VERY EASY to push with the rest of the finger the button B, EASY to push C button, and HARD to push A button also.

Since I'm using too this strategy let's deal with it.

[Sik]

Pressing Start and another button at the same time is hell (at least in the case of an action game), you need to change the position of your fingers since the Start button is not ready to press while in the usual stance. That's something you want to avoid at all costs.

Let's throw more gasoline to the fire:
It depends on the target audience, but if you are considering youngsters it's better to select from a few available pre-configurations than assign buttons. Also if you objective is only pc users is ok to assign buttons. Since I know you are going to say that you target is everyone then it's preferable to go for the pre-configurations.

With a 3 button controller there are only six combinations (ABC, ACB, BAC, BCA, CAB, CBA), most games would just let you cycle through all of them for this reason. I think the problem is when a 6 button controller is involved and you want to support the extra buttons, in that case there are way too many combinations. Note that there's the Virtua Racing approach of a few predefined mappings and an "EDIT" mapping that lets you customize it entirely.

This said, I never got confused by being able to assign as I wish... you just have to make it clear that you have to press the button you want to use.