I made a discovery...

stalepie · Post by **stalepie** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:13 pm

Stef wrote:That's really surprising you prefer listen music at 22 Khz than 44 Khz.

shrugs, it sounds better, certain games especially. Like the drums in Space Harrier II are really harsh at the 44 setting, and don't sound like they do on a real Genesis coming from a real TV, but then if you set it to 22050, it sounds more like normal. I thought Gens set it at 22050 as the default.

Stef wrote: Except if you enable the YM2612 High Quality flag (which force high frenquency generation).
The internal YM2612 isn't real analog, in fact it's all digital, high digital rate actually. The exact sample is 68k frequency / 144. I can't affirm that's 100% exact but i found this value by deduction and it seems accurate (and Kega uses it as well know). This value is required for some extrem high modulated sound as the spinning panel sound in the end of sonic level.
Just do a try with and without the high quality YM2612 flag in Gens or Kega.

It matters most how the sound designers expected their music to be heard.
Anyway, I've yet to hear Genesis emulation that gets sound anything but about 80% right. Gens is the best, and .vgm winamp plugin second best. Sometimes the gym format actually sounds better than .vgm, heh, but no one listens to me.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:21 pm

Did you tried Kega Fusion ? Kega Fusion is imo the best in sound reproduction. It's still not perfect but better than Gens in almost case.

stalepie · Post by **stalepie** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:23 pm

Stef wrote:Did you tried Kega Fusion ? Kega Fusion is imo the best in sound reproduction. It's still not perfect but better than Gens in amost case.

Oh, you're the guy who made Gens? I just now see your profile. That means you're the guy who also freaked me out with that April Fool's joke a couple of years ago where I thought my harddrive was being deleted. So you diss your own sound code? Are you sure some games don't sound better at 22050? Why would you set that as the default then? Most people wouldn't know to change it if it sounds better at some other setting.

Yes i've tried Fusion. I used to love Kega98, and I know Fusion is better, and for a while I liked Fusion the best. Then i hated the hard scanline effect on Fusion in comparison to "25% interpolated scanline" mode on Gens. I think in the end Gens sounds the best. I think I've tried every Genesis sound emulation program there is for Windows.

I feel kind of stupid about caring about such things so much. I should worry more about coding my own new games instead of thinking about the old forgotten games that nobodyplays anymore. It just infuriates me that emulation is never very good, for any system. Like it's some kind of lost cause, maybe.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:30 pm

stalepie wrote:
Stef wrote:Did you tried Kega Fusion ? Kega Fusion is imo the best in sound reproduction. It's still not perfect but better than Gens in amost case.
Oh, you're the guy who made Gens? I just now see your profile. That means you're the guy who also freaked me out with that April Fool's joke a couple of years ago where I thought my harddrive was being deleted. So you diss your own sound code? Are you sure some games don't sound better at 22050? Why would you set that as the default then? Most people wouldn't know to change it if it sounds better at some other setting.

The April Fool's joke wasn't my idea but still was fun

The 44 Khz with high quality flag is the most accurate setting for the YM2612 sound. To be 100% correct, i would have to set the sound rate to ~54 Khz almost soundcard doesn't support this non-standard rate.
I set it to 22 Khz at default because that takes less CPU time and because almost people won't heard a big difference

I'm not dissing my own code, Gens is definitly *not bad* in sound emulation, it even bring a better sound quality than other emulator when it was regulary updated.
But that's no more the case, Kega Fusion reached a better level of accuracy now

I never was in competition with Kega and more specifically with Steve Snake (the author of Kega Fusion). We shared many informations to improve our emulator

stalepie · Post by **stalepie** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:35 pm

Stef wrote: The April Fool's joke wasn't my idea but still was fun
I set it to 22 Khz at default because that takes less CPU time and because almost people won't heard a big difference
Gens is definitly *not bad* in sound emulation, it even brings a better sound quality than other emulator when it was regulary updated.
But that's no more the case, Kega Fusion reached a better level of accuracy now I never was in competition with Kega and more specifically with Steve Snake (the author of Kega Fusion). We shared many informations to improve our emulator

But isnt' the point of emulation to make it sound like the original hardware?

stalepie · Post by **stalepie** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:37 pm

Oh well, I don't get it. I don't mean to cause a fuss. I don't think I have the brains to understand this stuff.

TmEE co.(TM) · Post by **TmEE co.(TM)** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:02 pm

Stalepie, you didn't know that Stef is the author of Gens ? Anyway that HDD eraser was a great one !!! My computer class teacher freaked out when she saw it !!!

Also I uploaded the sources for WAVPLAY and 960 color test on my site. I also updated GBMD (no blank screen with 6-button controllers).

I like Fusion more than Gens as its DAC sounds lot better, very close to real HW. Gens is lot faster, but now I have something better than P166MMX and I use Fusion more. Don't worry Stef, Gens is my number one debugging/developement emulator !!!

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:59 pm

stalepie wrote:
Stef wrote: The April Fool's joke wasn't my idea but still was fun
I set it to 22 Khz at default because that takes less CPU time and because almost people won't heard a big difference
Gens is definitly *not bad* in sound emulation, it even brings a better sound quality than other emulator when it was regulary updated.
But that's no more the case, Kega Fusion reached a better level of accuracy now I never was in competition with Kega and more specifically with Steve Snake (the author of Kega Fusion). We shared many informations to improve our emulator
But isnt' the point of emulation to make it sound like the original hardware?

Of course it is. And Kega does it better than Gens.
Are you speaking about the 22 Khz defaut option ? it was usefull 6 years ago when machine weren't as fast as today, but i agree today it's an error to keep 22 Khz as default...

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:40 pm

TmEE co.(TM) wrote:Stalepie, you didn't know that Stef is the author of Gens ? Anyway that HDD eraser was a great one !!! My computer class teacher freaked out when she saw it !!!
Also I uploaded the sources for WAVPLAY and 960 color test on my site. I also updated GBMD (no blank screen with 6-button controllers).

I like Fusion more than Gens as its DAC sounds lot better, very close to real HW. Gens is lot faster, but now I have something better than P166MMX and I use Fusion more. Don't worry Stef, Gens is my number one debugging/developement emulator !!!

I just tried your small test roms, i can't get GBMD to work (blank screen) but i really like the wavplay demos

it's cool to heard a complete digital music on megadrive

I've also uploaded a small stuff i did these last days :
http://gens.consolemul.com/download/temp/partic.zip

I'm not satisfied with it, i'll probably fix it with time.
You can use A + up/down key as B + up/down key to change some parameters.

stalepie · Post by **stalepie** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:31 am

Stef wrote:
stalepie wrote:
Stef wrote: The April Fool's joke wasn't my idea but still was fun
I set it to 22 Khz at default because that takes less CPU time and because almost people won't heard a big difference
Gens is definitly *not bad* in sound emulation, it even brings a better sound quality than other emulator when it was regulary updated.
But that's no more the case, Kega Fusion reached a better level of accuracy now I never was in competition with Kega and more specifically with Steve Snake (the author of Kega Fusion). We shared many informations to improve our emulator
But isnt' the point of emulation to make it sound like the original hardware?
Of course it is. And Kega does it better than Gens.
Are you speaking about the 22 Khz defaut option ? it was usefull 6 years ago when machine weren't as fast as today, but i agree today it's an error to keep 22 Khz as default...

Though you are the author of maybe the best emulator I have ever used, I have to disagree. I do not know anything about sampling rates, but in Gens it usually sounds better at the 22050 setting. It is warmer, cloudier that way, and at 44100 it is thinner, punchier. Too punchy. I just spent an hour trying out different sound tests and at first I staunchly disagreed, but then I acquiesed, especially when I tried out Ghouls 'n Ghosts. Then I listened to Streets of Rage and was sure again that it sounded better at 22 Hz. Then I tried out Story of Thor mp3s that Yuzo Koshiro himself gave me once, from his old backup CD, and compared how it sounded at 22 and 44 on both Gens and Kega Fusion, and liked Yuzo's so much better that I decided that all emulation is bad. However, to try to conclude, I have to say that I cannot decide, because I want to be honest and say that 22 generally sounds more appropriate (denser spacing of sounds, more muffled), while at the same time I want to agree to avoid argument. Then again, Sonic's rings sound effect sounds better at 44 Hz (in Gens; in Kega Fusion everything sounds better at 44 Hz). Hmm, maybe I will try again more tomorrow.

TmEE co.(TM) · Post by **TmEE co.(TM)** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:39 am

Stef wrote:I just tried your small test roms, i can't get GBMD to work (blank screen) but i really like the wavplay demos it's cool to heard a complete digital music on megadrive

I've also uploaded a small stuff i did these last days :
http://gens.consolemul.com/download/temp/partic.zip

I'm not satisfied with it, i'll probably fix it with time.
You can use A + up/down key as B + up/down key to change some parameters.

I'll check out your stuff as soon as I get home (I'm in school now).
I forgot to enable ints (for palette un-fading), it should display warning that 6-button controller is used. I updated GBMD, it should not display black screen anymore (IF I uploaded the correct file).

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:11 am

ok, maybe that's a 6 buttons controlelrs problem then :p
I'll retest later when i'll be back at home.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:17 am

stalepie wrote:
Stef wrote:
stalepie wrote: But isnt' the point of emulation to make it sound like the original hardware?
Of course it is. And Kega does it better than Gens.
Are you speaking about the 22 Khz defaut option ? it was usefull 6 years ago when machine weren't as fast as today, but i agree today it's an error to keep 22 Khz as default...
Though you are the author of maybe the best emulator I have ever used, I have to disagree. I do not know anything about sampling rates, but in Gens it usually sounds better at the 22050 setting. It is warmer, cloudier that way, and at 44100 it is thinner, punchier. Too punchy. I just spent an hour trying out different sound tests and at first I staunchly disagreed, but then I acquiesed, especially when I tried out Ghouls 'n Ghosts. Then I listened to Streets of Rage and was sure again that it sounded better at 22 Hz. Then I tried out Story of Thor mp3s that Yuzo Koshiro himself gave me once, from his old backup CD, and compared how it sounded at 22 and 44 on both Gens and Kega Fusion, and liked Yuzo's so much better that I decided that all emulation is bad. However, to try to conclude, I have to say that I cannot decide, because I want to be honest and say that 22 generally sounds more appropriate (denser spacing of sounds, more muffled), while at the same time I want to agree to avoid argument. Then again, Sonic's rings sound effect sounds better at 44 Hz (in Gens; in Kega Fusion everything sounds better at 44 Hz). Hmm, maybe I will try again more tomorrow.

Well, that's not important, just a story of different sound sensibility. In my case i prefer 44 Khz. Maybe some sound can be more distorted at 44 Khz because of some inaccuracies in my YM2612 core but i assure you it shouldn't be the case on the theory.
You can do an easy test : just record your genesis output at 44 Khz, you will see that each sample is different

But again, that's not important, if you prefer 22 Khz then just use 22 Khz

TmEE co.(TM) · Post by **TmEE co.(TM)** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:57 am

Stef wrote:ok, maybe that's a 6 buttons controlelrs problem then :p
I'll retest later when i'll be back at home.

GBMD is written "as fast as machine would go" in some places (menus, pause) and therefore 6-button controllers are not supported thus the warning screen which instructs you to hold down MODE when powering up.
BTW I got SRAM working, thanks (disabled in the game at the moment) !!!

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:30 pm

TmEE co.(TM) wrote:
Stef wrote:ok, maybe that's a 6 buttons controlelrs problem then :p
I'll retest later when i'll be back at home.
GBMD is written "as fast as machine would go" in some places (menus, pause) and therefore 6-button controllers are not supported thus the warning screen which instructs you to hold down MODE when powering up.
BTW I got SRAM working, thanks (disabled in the game at the moment) !!!

Ok for the 6 button stuff...
How you figured it for the SRAM ?