KanedaFr vs MintyTheCat

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KanedaFr vs MintyTheCat

Post by KanedaFr » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:14 pm

Warning, this post is a public debate between I, KanedaFr, and MintyTheCat, UMDK fanboy.
If you have no time to lose, move on...




Hello there,

While Prophet is the moderator of this section, I recently take the "liberty" to delete (or censure if you prefer) some recents posts.


My position is clear : UMDK is the tool we need.
If I had more time, more skill, more money, I'll be a pleasure, if not an achievement for me, to distribute UMDK on SpritesMind.


On the other side, I'm really tired of all this fight about UMDK.
Some members clearly don't respect prophet awesome work.
Some members are talking about UMDK like if it was the Saint Graal.

I won't tolerate it HERE anymore.
I had to talk with prophet about this because I gave it the full right on this dedicated forum but, my immediate reaction is to act against any members who'll continue to WRONLGY critize UMDK or start a fight.

If you have any reaction or question, my MP box is open but BE constructive, no insult[/i][/b]
Last edited by KanedaFr on Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by prophet36 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:01 pm

To be clear, I have precisely zero "ego" about UMDK. I designed and built it for my own reasons. It was my first nontrivial FPGA project so it's reasonable to expect some suboptimal design decisions. The project taught me a lot, and it was instrumental in getting me my current job, which I love. So as far as I'm concerned, the project was a success, and nothing anyone can do or say will take that from me. In fact, that it has the potential to help the MD development community is actually purely co-incidental.

So I welcome criticism. And if anyone wants to develop UMDK further (miniaturization perhaps), then (provided they respect the copyleft clauses in the licences) they do so with my wholehearted support, and I'll freely offer whatever help I can. And if anyone thinks they can do a better job of implementing the same functionality starting from scratch, in the spirit of good-natured competition I say "bring it on". Nothing would make me happier than if my work inspired someone to strive to create something awesome.

SpritesMind is UMDK's spiritual home. It began right here with my hacky proof of concept on home-etched PCB back in 2008. And over time it developed, in fits and starts, with help from many SM people. I see no reason to move the official support forum elsewhere. I'm happy to help people arrange group purchasing and manufacturing, and I'm happy to help with debugging UMDK carts and other support questions. If it takes off and inspires a new generation of MD homebrew games and demos, great. Conversely, if it slowly dies, I can only shrug: after all, it was the journey that was important, not the destination.

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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:19 am

The problem here is the deleting of my posts and leaving Oerg's posts untouched.

It is not acceptable to delete my posts and leave Oerg's especially when the basis for deleting my posts (one of them contained the word 'dick') is present in Oerg's post.

This comes across as acting with a bias, kaneda.

You most certainly were critical of UMDK, kaneda and I took great pains to convince you otherwise which again is shown on SM.

Regardless of this administrative bias the important point here is to proceed and get UMDK manufactured. I have suitably made my point and feelings towards Oerg quite clear and indeed Oerg has told us all that he will endevour to make his own UMDK inspired project so all in all things in the MD development scene will improve.

I have asked kaneda to consider placing exactly what words cannot be used in the Rules/Guidelines section and I think he needs to review his policy on moderating posts - it is not acceptable to merely delete one member's posts, kaneda and you may well find that the chap whose post you have deleted will ask to know why you took such action.

It removes confidence in a Moderator's ability to moderate, kaneda so think on.

Cheers,

Minty.
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Post by Eke » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:02 pm

@MintyTheCat

I don't think there are any "bias" against UMDK on that forum. How can you say that when it has its own sub-forum right here?

Being critical is an healthy thing as long as it is not simply being bitchy and negative over any new initiative.

As for people being impatient and somehow pushy, I'm afraid that it's unavoidable for any announced project but honestly, it does not seem that much recurrent in that thread, at least publically, that's why I guess your post insulting him back and the answers/arguing that followed were seen as unecessary and were all deleted.

I think you involved yourself a lot in that manufacturing project and maybe it turned to be more difficult than you initially thought, anyway, it seems like this got you a lot emotionaly involved and very sensitive on the subject, much more than us as outside eyes can imagine possibly.

This is understandable but keep in mind that moderating a forum is likely not a funny job and Kaneda has probably better things to do than dealing with people fighting and trying to figure who was right and who was wrong. If you have children, you know how painful and tiresome it is to hear them crying and blaming each other for the fault while not knowing which one started the fight, right ? Because this is exactly how it looks like right now.

Sorry for the rant but I felt like Kaneda should be defended on that one, I know all he wants is to keep this place as friendly as it always has been.

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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:58 pm

Eke wrote:@MintyTheCat

I don't think there are any "bias" against UMDK on that forum. How can you say that when it has its own sub-forum right here?
KanedaFr wrote:
Result is you WON'T find here a lot of people interested in.
Why ? several reasons, same as for software, :
- already have a flashcart or expensive everdrive
- won't use something I didn't create myself (and open source is not enough)
- emulator is enough

You can't force people to get an UMDK, even if it's the must-needed tool to get into real development.
I tweeted about, I posted about.
I won't ban anyone who don't want to buy an UMDK !

I'm not also full of money.
If I could, I'd pay for a batch of 50 and make them available here for anyone wanting one (and I already knew it will sell mainly to collector only to resell them 4 times the price in 5 years).
I could only pay for Spritesmind fees, that's all.

So yes, it's a shame to see such a good kit with such a few success.
but look at the genny scene, it's the same.
Lot of great devers, lot of great tools, lot of great kits and ... what ?
5 or 6 releases in +15years ?!
So don't expect anything to change because UMDK is available.

It's my 2 cents, anyone can disagree with but it's what I feel.
Well, we have orders for two batches of twenty at last count.
There have been a number of such comments from kaneda but I pulled this one up from that very Thread.

As I recall I did ask kaneda to add a few extra forum sections but I forget if it was me or ChrisM who asked for UMDK now. I know I asked for the Collaboration section to be added some time last year. It may have been Chris who asked thinking about it.
Eke wrote:@MintyTheCat
Being critical is an healthy thing as long as it is not simply being bitchy and negative over any new initiative.
I agree and you will find that I personally take the proactive approach instead of coming up with excuses. There have been things going on between those who got involved and I can assure you that we have all put something into this on our side.
Eke wrote:@MintyTheCat
As for people being impatient and somehow pushy, I'm afraid that it's unavoidable for any announced project but honestly, it does not seem that much recurrent in that thread, at least publically, that's why I guess your post insulting him back and the answers/arguing that followed were seen as unecessary and were all deleted.
The last update before Oerg's reply was posted I think a mere 8 days by db where db explained what had been going on in his life.
I did not want db to have to pander to Oerg so I told him to stop being impatient. It is very easy to sit and demand updates when you have nothing tied up in the effort so it came across as being a bit rich.
I had been polite to Oerg the last time he did the same with the "yawn" ( no thing more just a yawn). I understand that Oerg wants to have UMDK and he claimed he did not have any dev hardware. I find that incredible to believe given the amount of time he has been signed up to Sprites Mind. As an example I bought my dev hardware 10 months having started a couple of years back.

I messaged Oerg by PM and explained what had been going on to which my PM was ignored and this is when the problems started.
Eke wrote:@MintyTheCat
I think you involved yourself a lot in that manufacturing project and maybe it turned to be more difficult than you initially thought, anyway, it seems like this got you a lot emotionaly involved and very sensitive on the subject, much more than us as outside eyes can imagine possibly.
I have put a lot into this, for the record I am not a guy with experience in hardware manufacture but I took it on my self as I had very faith that any one else would do a lot. We all understand what the obstacles are in getting UMDK but I saw it as being a set of factors to work with.
I have witnessed that many people tend to sit and watch and wait. I am of the opinion that this rarely gets us anywhere and as such put things in motion.
We have now liased with four manufacturing leads which has been handled between me and several others and Chris McClelland.
We had one guy literally waste 4-5 months of our time and to this day we do not really know what happened with him.
I can tell you that it can be rather frustrating :)
Eke wrote:@MintyTheCat
This is understandable but keep in mind that moderating a forum is likely not a funny job and Kaneda has probably better things to do than dealing with people fighting and trying to figure who was right and who was wrong. If you have children, you know how painful and tiresome it is to hear them crying and blaming each other for the fault while not knowing which one started the fight, right ? Because this is exactly how it looks like right now.
I agree, I would not wish to moderate a whol forum - maybe a single section.
However, that being said there needs to be a clear understanding a protocol when purging posts and threads. Without this it appears biased and too subjective.
A couple of us had our posts wiped out last year and this has set some ill feelings on the site in motion.

I agree, which is why I have cats instead of children :)
Eke wrote:@MintyTheCat
Sorry for the rant but I felt like Kaneda should be defended on that one, I know all he wants is to keep this place as friendly as it always has been.
I think the answer is transparent moderation and a protocol and a set of rules and guidelines to avoid these mishaps.
I did not receive any notification from kaneda, the posts and all of them I made were simply deleted. You have to appreciate that this is going to upset some people.

All in all this matter is not about UMDK it is about effective and fair moderation, Eke.

I will not defend my part in this and in hindsight it would have better to simply ignore Oerg's post as it will not change how quickly we get it done :)

db, me and Chris all have our own lives and other projects so in real terms UMDK is one project that we are working on but not the only project.

Cheers, Eke.

Minty.
Last edited by MintyTheCat on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by prophet36 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:37 pm

OK, here's a nice clear protocol:
The Posting Guideline Genie wrote:When posting here, you will at all times show respect for other members, even if you disagree with them.
I've deliberately left it nonspecific. As adults, we should not need anything more. Please, let's just absolve all perceived transgressions, adopt this protocol and move on. The alternative is further escalation of this disagreement, and I fail to see how any good can possibly come of that.

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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:32 pm

prophet36 wrote:OK, here's a nice clear protocol:
The Posting Guideline Genie wrote:When posting here, you will at all times show respect for other members, even if you disagree with them.
I've deliberately left it nonspecific. As adults, we should not need anything more. Please, let's just absolve all perceived transgressions, adopt this protocol and move on. The alternative is further escalation of this disagreement, and I fail to see how any good can possibly come of that.
I agree in principle but often the understanding of respect boils down to the individual and in turn is subjective.

I think we need to have something clearly stated wrt deleting posts. Oerg's posts still stand but mine do not - I see little respect there, Chris.
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Post by prophet36 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:17 pm

MintyTheCat wrote:often the understanding of respect boils down to the individual and in turn is subjective.
I disagree. I think everyone here understands what it means to be respectful. If that concept truly needs further elaboration, then arguably all is lost.
MintyTheCat wrote:Oerg's posts still stand but mine do not - I see little respect there, Chris.
This is what I meant by "please, let's just absolve all perceived transgressions...and move on".

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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:02 pm

Your PM went ignored because you decided to call me a dick in public instead of leaving it at the PM.
I find that incredible to believe given the amount of time he has been signed up to Sprites Mind. As an example I bought my dev hardware 10 months having started a couple of years back.
I find it incredible to believe my trusty MD Pro broke after 8 years of heavy usage. Why invest in something like a Mega ED after that when something like UMDK is coming any day now?

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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:19 pm

Oerg866 wrote: From: Oerg866
To: MintyTheCat
Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:03 pm
Subject: Re: UMDK. Quote message
Quote:

We'll see you in say five years with your own FPGA based development system for the MD, Oerg Smile


Suck it.
Cheers, Oerg.
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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:20 pm

Oerg866 wrote:Your PM went ignored because you decided to call me a dick in public instead of leaving it at the PM.
I find that incredible to believe given the amount of time he has been signed up to Sprites Mind. As an example I bought my dev hardware 10 months having started a couple of years back.
I find it incredible to believe my trusty MD Pro broke after 8 years of heavy usage. Why invest in something like a Mega ED after that when something like UMDK is coming any day now?
To which you agreed you behaved like a dick, Oerg. How many ways you want to have it?
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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:22 pm

Seems just like you to leave out the important part of that PM (well, aside from publicizing it without my permission).

"Suck it." was actually a HTTP link to this URL:

http://img.ctrlv.in/img/15/04/16/5530222cd8103.png

Please stay accurate ;)
To which you agreed you behaved like a dick, Oerg. How many ways you want to have it?
Missing the important bit where I actually said the post you *didn't* call me out on *could* be interpreted as being dickish, not the one you actually did.
Last edited by Oerg866 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:22 pm

prophet36 wrote:
MintyTheCat wrote:often the understanding of respect boils down to the individual and in turn is subjective.
I disagree. I think everyone here understands what it means to be respectful. If that concept truly needs further elaboration, then arguably all is lost.
MintyTheCat wrote:Oerg's posts still stand but mine do not - I see little respect there, Chris.
This is what I meant by "please, let's just absolve all perceived transgressions...and move on".
We could move on if this was an isolated case. Both me and db can attest that our posts have been deleted.

This is the issue here: posts are simply deleted unfairly.

I have tried to keep this civil and look back at how Oerg behaved.

All I can, Oerg, is that we live in a very small world :)
Last edited by MintyTheCat on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by KanedaFr » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:24 pm

I'll start this new post by my apologies :

Sorry Prophet, I know we said I just had to let it move but Minty is now telling false facts about me on public.
I can't let this happen and make people think SpritesMind is a place where I act like the king of the world.


To others SpritesMind's members :
DON'T reply or quote this post or PM Minty.
It's only between Minty and I.
It was not my goal to spam the forum with this nonsense talk but I had now to explain myself for what I did, what I'll do and what I'll NEVER do.
I can't let you think I'm some sort of dictator, owner of SpritesMind.
i'm not the owner...YOU are the owners, I'm the guy with the keys to keep SpritesMind clean and ready for everyone serious about Genny developpement
BUT if you think I'm at fault, PM me because this reason is a valid one.


Now, let's go Minty !
Like I PM you, you make it public so let's me answer, if you're able to accept that and not think it's a lack of respect
KanedaFr wrote:
Result is you WON'T find here a lot of people interested in.
...
I don't think I had to explain myselft about this PM (like PRIVATE message) I sent you...what ? 1 year ago ?
Anyone who'll read the entire message will notice these words

You can't force people to get an UMDK, even if it's the must-needed tool to get into real development.
I tweeted about, I posted about.
If I could, I'd pay for a batch of 50 and make them available here for anyone wanting one
It's my 2 cents, anyone can disagree with but it's what I feel.
So yes, like you could see, I'm totally AGAINST UMDK
It's a total piece of junk noone should get....only me !

Oh, and you get 40 orders ?!
GREAT ! you prove me I was wrong !
It gave me more hope on the genny scene future and so make me get back to work.
It's why I tolerate you childish posts all this year, because you was clearly involved a lot, like Eke said, to make this happen.
It's an awesome work, a work I was unable to do, not because I didn't want (or hate UMDK) but because I can't (real life, lack of skill, ...)


MintyTheCat wrote: As I recall I did ask kaneda to add a few extra forum sections but I forget if it was me or ChrisM who asked for UMDK now
Let me remember you HOW you asked it
"You have to create UMDK dedicated forum, I don't understand why you're not giving more of yourself to make UMDK the must one"
...or something similar
My reply was the message you just post so it would be easy for you to get it back

Then I asked to Prophet about his feelings about this...
He told me he didn't care and if it could help people, I could create a sub forum (@prophet will fix me if I'm saying something wrong)
So I created it and, by respect (you know, the thing I don't know about), I made him moderator, to show everyone UMDK was HIS creation and behold to him, not to me or SpritesMind
Oh, and I did the same for Regen and Exodus but I think you don't care...because you're UMDK fanboy not Exodus not Regen fanboy .
Perhaps you think I did it only to get more power and get all the fame ?

Now, let's talk about the collaboration.
Thanks Minty, we OWE you the collaboration section
"you HAVE to create a collaboration section, it's why member don't work together"....or something similar (yes, sorry, personnaly I don't save all my PM, only the most important one)
Just for you to know, in the meantimes, 2 others members asked for it too.

i'll let you search the post when I explain I could create any subforum if there is a need...and so I made it


Now about all the genny sub forum...
wait...it's not you!
it's the others one, you know, the members of SpritesMind !
They asked for a YM2612 sub forum
I made it....and some others....and spent some hours to move all the posts to the right places, just because I have nothing else to do...
viewtopic.php?t=1941



So let me share parts of your last PM since you ask for public debate
MintyTheCat wrote: You were actually negative towards UMDK as can be seen on the Forum.
Let me know WHERE it could be seen please.
MintyTheCat wrote: Let us keep in mind that my interest with this Thread was to put into action the plan to get UMDK manufactured for the MD developers to buy if they so chose to.

You also need to appreciate that our team has had some personal things to deal with and Oerg's impatience is not helping.
.....

For the record: UMDK is far too useful and it may well be a holy grail as far as most of the developers will find and appreciate but this is about getting UMDK manufactured.
i TOTALLY agreed with you
just not about the holy grail, sorry
MintyTheCat wrote: This is not the first time you have deleted posts and I can tell you it pisses us guys off when the grounds are poor. By all means censore that one word but never simply delete an entire posts.
OK....WHICH posts did I delete ? WHO was offended ?
Just tell me....you ? spammers ?
The first and last time I did it, I almost cried doing it !
Just to remember:
viewtopic.php?t=1936
and no, sorry, I didn't cry when I deleted yours

So the MAIN fact, the absolute crime, the worst thing I did, like an emperor, the king of SpritesMind.
Let me copy/past my answer :
KanedaFr wrote:
MintyTheCat wrote: it is known that you are not a fan of mine

WOW !
let me post a POLL
when did you read I'm not a "fan" ?
Because I didn't defend you ?
Because I didn't support you ?

Yes, I think you're TOO much and it's clearly easy to make you upset.
but, sorry, it's MY own opinion. I keep it for me because you're a member of SpritesMind and I have respect for any member of SpritesMind.
Now, I'll defend SpritesMind with all Ihave
And if you (OR ANYONE ELSE) is acting like a dick, I'll take measure.

I react to the first posts, when you used the word dick too much then, since I had to make a choice : delete everything / lock the thread / wait

I stopped and waited : and here you come....
so what should I do ?
Ban you ? Eject you ? Nothing ?
i don't know...
but it is now known you, and Oerg, are a problem to SpritesMind, even if I didn't give your name....

I don't want this to shadow Prophet's work so I'll talk with him first but your last childish acts aren't voting for you.
And stop you menace, I doesn't work on me.
nothing was edited, like you could approve.
I said this to you, I still think it.
It explain why Oerg's posts weren't deleted.
So yes, I deleted 2 of your posts and none of Oerg.
Yes, I react to your second one ("enought is enought, SM isn't a school")
I was about to continue (Oerg"s was next ones)...but I stopped because else I had to delete all the thread.
Then prophet answered to Oerg
"You think you can make something else, easier to make and less expensive...do it"
THIS is what I mean debate....not fight
If oerg fails, I won't ban him
If oerg succeed, we'll congrats him, and I'm pretty sure prophet included
Oerg posts was words for nothing ?
perhaps...but just browse SpritesMind ...
you'll find a lot of projects (like I said earlier on the PM you copy/pasted) who started and won't finish (or in 10 years!)


About my act, you didn't like it ? i could understand.
I lack of respect deleting a post...sorry 2 posts which, from MY point of view were lacking of respect to Oerg and Prophet
1/ yes, my PoV is the one and it's easy to accept:
viewtopic.php?p=5282#5282
2/ yes, you're actually lacking of respect to Prophet, because you're UMDK fanboy....and your acts are so linked to UMDK. What is seen as bad is bad for UMDK, can you understand that ? Yes, you're acting badly.



So you want me to make a list of the forbidden words here ?
perhaps I should me an internationalist of forbidden words since it sometimes a bad word for some and an not-so-bad for some others.
Oh, and write a thesis about what the respect is ?

Anyway, I don't care because I won't make it.
There are rules, the (now) second post of the the sub forum:
viewtopic.php?t=5
I'll just add Prophet clear words because it's the one which make sense, not a 200 pages law book of what could be or should be done.
It's totally against SpritesMind nature.

About the futur, like a SpritesMind member, "acting" for the Genny dev scene, you're and will be welcome here.
BUT
1/ follow the "share, accept critize and stop being stupid" rule
2/ forget about me, like I'll forget about you, I don't want to talk with you EVER

Is it clear enough for you ?
Can you now move on ?
Last edited by KanedaFr on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:24 pm

Oerg866 wrote:Seems just like you to leave out the important part of that PM (well, aside from publicizing it without my permission).

"Suck it." was actually a HTTP link to this URL:

http://img.ctrlv.in/img/15/04/16/5530222cd8103.png

Please stay accurate ;)
kaneda gave an all free to a public debate, Oerg.

I am sure the records can be verified by kaneda as to what was sent between you and me and what's more I have sent all my communication to db and Chris.

You want to behave like a fool, Oerg, you go ahead.

As I said last week: "I think we have your card marked".
Last edited by MintyTheCat on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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