UMDK Manufacture: who wants one?

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Oerg866
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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:19 pm

How are these other people relevant? I don't know them. I don't want to know them. It doesn't benefit the topic at hand *knowing* them.

First of all, you're making it sound like there were three things when you only named two.

I specifically held out to buy any other development hardware because this looked the most sophisticated and promising. So, a *yawn* to get things going again wasn't the worst thing to ever happen to this thread, was it? After all, I still wanted this thing to move forward. I still do but I essentially gave up.

In total, there are two total posts you can name for something that has been supposedly going on consistently for a while now. I wonder how this is possible because only three pages ago I was VISIBLY enthusiastic about it and even tried to help by naming a reputable small-batch low-cost assembly plant.

Anyway, one of them is 50/50, yes, it might be interpreted as dickish.

But the other one? It's so NOT, is it...?! It was clearly a good-natured poke and it has a gosh-darn emoticon in it.

A loss in the family? Tragic, my condolecnces. But you act like I knew that before I wrote the post.
Last edited by Oerg866 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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db-electronics
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Post by db-electronics » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:19 pm

Oerg866 wrote:The initial "get it done for 40 bucks" target was immensely ambitious, one is lucky if he can get it done for twice that.
I completely agree with this point, my BOM cost is $59 for the LX9 board and $12 for the Bridge board - that's parts ONLY - no labour factored in.
Oerg866 wrote:* SMT inaccessible to mere mortals

^ Makes people dependant on people taking the initiative due to the need of assembly in factory
I've always preached that SMT soldering is MUCH easier and more repeatable than through-hole soldering. I suspect many people are either afraid to try it or simply haven't been taught properly.

I built my initial run of UMDK boards all by hand in my basement. It's really amazing what you can do with a Solder Paste Stencil and a hot plate. This is an older video but it shows how I use that process to build a different board I designed (Sega CD Backup RAM - https://youtu.be/alS9oG8uZXI)
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Oerg866
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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:23 pm

Hello,

Yes, you're actually half-right on that in my opinion.

But to do good SMT soldering consistently, you need to have a lot of experience and the right equipment.

If you have those, yes, it becomes very easy ;)

The problem is, most beginners have some cheapo iron with a giant tip, possibly ruined by improper care, no flux and large diameter solder...

Learning soldering properly is an investment because of all the things around it that you have to consider...

Soldering large QFP chips is also an entirely different league than SMT resistors/caps, at least for a beginner...

For experienced people (or at least for me) soldering tons of tiny <0603 components is much more of an ordeal :P

Cheers,
Eric

EDIT: Sorry, I completely manlged that last sentence. That didn't make any sense at all.
Last edited by Oerg866 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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db-electronics
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Post by db-electronics » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:28 pm

Oerg866 wrote:Not to mention that big SMT chips (e.g. QFP) are much easier to solder than for example a ton of small resistors and capacitors in a pitch smaller than 0603 :P
Well it's just your luck that UMDK is built on 0805 parts, not 0603 :lol:
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Oerg866
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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:31 pm

Hah :P

(BTW, I changed that line in my post because that wasn't *exactly* what I was trying to say at all.. :P)

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MintyTheCat
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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:38 pm

Oerg866 wrote: It was clearly a good-natured poke and it has a gosh-darn emoticon in it.

A loss in the family? Tragic, my condolecnces. But you act like I knew that before I wrote the post.
8 days, Oerg after an update from db.

As explained the PCB manufacture is the easy bit. I know from experience that finding a Pick and Place machine is a lot harder I found one in England through Sirmorris' contact, two in Germany but neither came through for us and we were notified by ChrisM/Prophet36 of a couple over in America. You see, without you being aware of it me here has been trying to make this happen along with Sirmorriss, db and ChrisM.

We were never looking at having UMDK hand made due to the numbers and hence I had to look around for people who had the necessary equipment.

I actually own UMDK myself and supported ChrisM during the last few years since 2012. I did this as a understood the importance it would have on the MD dev scene.

Prior to using UMDK I used an Everdrive with the USB port and had to limp along with that until UMDK was ready.

Good natured I feel not in your case. I see you more as a "give me now" type without any real awareness.

I shall accept your apology here and now and you will WAIT until db can get back onto UMDK.

It has been very frustrating for me to search for manufacturers and to find that they were not interested in supporting us. I wanted you all to get UMDK quickly but any number of cheasy little, pushy messages, Oerg, is going to show a lack of respect and indeed manners here and hence the 'dick' adjective being necessary.
Last edited by MintyTheCat on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by prophet36 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:45 pm

Oerg866 wrote:A USB development cartridge with 25€ worth of parts with two layers can easily be done in standard cartridge PCB size
If you can cram the necessary components onto a two-layer board the size of a standard cart, whilst maintaining the signal integrity on the 48MHz buses, great!

My design is open-source hardware, so as long as you respect the copyleft clauses in the licenses, you are free to create derived works. And you have my blessing to manufacture and sell them for whatever price you see fit.

I'm serious. Go ahead, do it. I will be the first to applaud if you get it working.

Chris
Last edited by prophet36 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by db-electronics » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:47 pm

I'll add that even simple low-speed layouts eat up 8 to 10 hours of my time; so when I see a 4 layer PCB that does something awesome (such as UMDK) I am damn glad that I don't have to route it!
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Post by prophet36 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:52 pm

Oerg866 wrote:The initial "get it done for 40 bucks" target was immensely ambitious, one is lucky if he can get it done for twice that.
My initial build last year was from a BoM with roughly 10x pricing, mostly from Chinese eBay and AliExpres sellers, and Hackvana for boards. The price per cart was indeed of the order $40. Of course that does not include labour; I think I remember saying in the video "with the right tools, you can make one yourself for about $40".

Chris

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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:59 pm

I'm serious. Go ahead, do it. I will be the first to applaud if you get it working.
OK, hold my beer :V

In all seriousness, how about I do one from scratch? Let's see where this goes :)

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MintyTheCat
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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:01 pm

Oerg866 wrote:
I'm serious. Go ahead, do it. I will be the first to applaud if you get it working.
OK, hold my beer :V

In all seriousness, how about I do one from scratch? Let's see where this goes :)
Because, I was never interested in having one UMDK kit for one user, Oerg. The sole purpose is to get the UMDK kits to all who want them and you will have seen that the numbers were between 30-40 orders.

As I said previously, this is a community action and has nothing to do with your needs as a single developer.
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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:06 pm

Are you through?

I wasn't even talking to you this time. (Not that I would want to keep defending something I didn't actually do)

(Also "one" refers to "an MD development cartridge", not a number)

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MintyTheCat
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Post by MintyTheCat » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:21 pm

Oerg866 wrote:Are you through?

I wasn't even talking to you this time. (Not that I would want to keep defending something I didn't actually do)

(Also "one" refers to "an MD development cartridge", not a number)
No, I am not through with you, Oerg.

If you cast your mind back I was the guy who started this campaign to get UMDK manufactured when I felt it would be ignored even when it appeared on Hackaday last year.

It is too useful to the MD developers and ChrisM put a lot of work, time, effort and money into it to see it fall by the way side. So where credit is due, Oerg. All you did was come along later and put your name down for one which is the easy bit from where I am sitting.

And since I started this thread you will appreciate why I am focusing on you.

One, you know refers to one as in "Eins". You would hardly be able to produce many of these so please and in fact I advised you to not do so a while back when you asked just for a PCB. In fact, I asked you if you could make more than one and you said no it was just for you. You let us concur that you meant "one"/"Eins" singular for your own benefit and not have anything to do with the rest of the MD Developers who want to have one.

If you would like to you can contact all the Hackspaces in Germany and find someone who would be able and willing to produce PCBs and who has a Pick and Place machine. Your German is substantially better than mine and you indeed appear to have more time on your hands so by all means help the MD Community out and start the process to help others.
Oerg866 wrote:
MintyTheCat wrote:
Oerg866 wrote:Hi Minty, I'd like to have a board. I'm in Germany and I can build it myself too, all I need is the PCBs made ;)

Cheers
Oerg866
Hallo Örg,

ja, ich habe mit Sirmorris dieser Woche gesprochen. Alles klar bei ein PCB für dich.

Eine Frage: Was für Werkzeuge hast du? Besteht die Moglichkeit, daß du auch PCBs für andere machst?

So weit wir haben um 15 Bestellen. Mehr Hilf ist noch gut :)
Das Equipment habe ich, aber nicht die Zeit um PCBs für andere zu bauen, sorry :(
And above is the question posed by me whereby you say that you "have not got time to build other PCBs" but you have got time to make one so it stands - you are stating that you would make a single PCB for yourself. Again, this is not the intention of this drive to have UMDK manufactured for one person but for the community.

You need to understand that this is a community action and not something here to get you and just you your Development Hardware, Oerg.
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prophet36
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Post by prophet36 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:33 pm

Oerg866 wrote:In all seriousness, how about I do one from scratch? Let's see where this goes :)
Sure, go ahead. To give you some idea of the amount of work involved, UMDK took me about one full-time person-year (spread over several years) and cost about $700 in tools, prototypes and components to develop. It was a very rewarding experience though, I learned a hell of a lot in the process, so I wholeheartedly recommend it if you're looking for a non-trivial learning project to get your teeth into.

Chris

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Post by Oerg866 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:28 pm

Minty:
tl;dr
Look, man. I'm trying to have a normal conversation here. I was just elaborating on my sentence. If I can't say a word (to other people, mind you) without you getting in the way and posting ten billion manhours worth of mad and angry response text, I'll just start ignoring you if that's more convenient for you. In any case, I have no idea why I just sparked that long of a reply, but I won't waste my time with it.
prophet36 wrote:
Oerg866 wrote:In all seriousness, how about I do one from scratch? Let's see where this goes :)
Sure, go ahead. To give you some idea of the amount of work involved, UMDK took me about one full-time person-year (spread over several years) and cost about $700 in tools, prototypes and components to develop. It was a very rewarding experience though, I learned a hell of a lot in the process, so I wholeheartedly recommend it if you're looking for a non-trivial learning project to get your teeth into.

Chris
As for your post, Chris, you may think I've been joking or something, but I wasn't. It helps that I've done this sort of thing before.

At least compared to my last endeavour the bus is is fully documented and understood :P

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