Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

For hardware talk only (please avoid ROM dumper stuff)
OJC
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Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by OJC » Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:44 am

Hello,

I've been speaking to Kaneda and DB Electronics CA. I watched a few videos regarding the megadrive modding and kept seeing links back to spritesmind. I'm a big retro collector and I also work on various projects but nothing like physical modding. Have you ever heard of xband? It was a retro cartridge add-on in the early 90's. It was only available on 56k and that was its real downfall. I want to build a WiFi version for the today's market. First it would be a prototype which I want to pay someone to build. Would you or would you know if someone would be interested?

Here is a document I've wrote summing up the concept

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yTN ... cslist_api

cero
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by cero » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:55 am

Option one would be illegal, option two would have more power in the cart than the console and thus be expensive to manufacture, and option three would have serious latency issues (player one direct access, player two wifi latency + internet latency, where just one of those is enough to make fast games unplayable. Though you could slow p1 down as well...) in addition to expensive hw if streaming was included.

MrTamk1s
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by MrTamk1s » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:44 pm

Somewhat old, but the closest thing so far to a "modern", working XBAND attempt is Krikzz's (of EverDrive fame) NES BattleCity port with online support (using a PC as a modem, the USB port of the Mega Everdrive, and the MED's exclusive SSF-EX mapper)

YouTube video
Relevant Krikzz forum link

Probably far easier for people to hack SSF-EX support into games for MED units rather than having to reinvent the wheel by creating new hardware. (Also, yeah, WIFI XBAND would cause waaaay to much latency with the processing needed for wireless internet)
SGDK homebrew dev and Unity3D Indie dev.
Sega does what Nintendont!

OJC
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by OJC » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:47 am

Thanks Tamk1s,

I actually did message "Krikzz" and I didn't know someone actually set up a game to work on network. Judging by the responses I got from this forum and a few emails. Sounds like a no go.

------------------

db Electronics wrote:

This is a huge project and quite frankly there's a limited market for this kind of thing. Not only that, the bandwidth you can get out of the 68000 is quite limited if you opt for the Genesis serial port (because you get interrupts here). Else you'd need a very special cartridge with memory-mapped hardware for the WIFI (without the benefit of interrupts) so polling needs to happen for data (a huge slow-down, polling = bad).

Moreover, the hardware in this project in my opinion is the easy part, the hard part is modifying game code to support the online multiplayer aspect - mostly anything you'll attempt here will be illegal with respect to copyright laws.

------------------

On the legal aspect, I also went back to read my understanding of emulators and roms. I was always under the impression there was a 24/48 hour rule but it turns out to be wrong. Not sure where I read that. Nintendo are very clear about whats allowed http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp.

Anyway thank you everyone for your advice, I'll go back to playing retro one player.

Sik
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by Sik » Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:26 pm

Not only the 24hs rule is bullshit (can't believe some people still fall for this), the back-up rule is also bullshit for ROMs (that's right, backing up your cartridge is illegal =P). So yeah. Not sure if temporarily dumping the cartridge into RAM (not any sort of non-volatile storage) to be able to run it from there counts, though, but modifying the software would probably still be illegal anyway.
Sik is pronounced as "seek", not as "sick".

Mask of Destiny
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by Mask of Destiny » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:35 pm

Sik wrote:Not only the 24hs rule is bullshit (can't believe some people still fall for this),
24 hour rule had zero basis in fact. Not sure where people even came up with it.
Sik wrote:the back-up rule is also bullshit for ROMs (that's right, backing up your cartridge is illegal =P).
At least in the US, a solid case can be made that personally backing up cartridges you own is legal, though the DMCA makes this less clear cut than it should be. 17 U.S. Code § 117 part (a) reads:
Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.—Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or
(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.
Additionally, the courts seem to have interpreted the "Fair Use" provision to allow "format" shifting for non-software works in some situations so a case could be made even without the specific backup. The only potential fly in the ointment is the anti-circumvention provision in the DMCA which states:
(1)
(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.
and defines these terms further down:
(3) As used in this subsection—
(A) to “circumvent a technological measure” means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and
(B) a technological measure “effectively controls access to a work” if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.
You can maybe make an argument that a Genesis cartridge meets the definition of a "technological measure that effectively controls access to a work" by virtue of the requirement for special equipment to make a copy, but it's a bit of a stretch. Nintendo did make such an argument in its case against Bung, but you could argue their use of lockout chips gives them a stronger claim. This will probably never get a definitive answer because no one uses unencrypted cartridges anymore and it's unlikely anyone is going to sue over dumping Genesis cartridges now.
Sik wrote:Not sure if temporarily dumping the cartridge into RAM (not any sort of non-volatile storage) to be able to run it from there counts, though,
Not sure what the current state of legal precedent is on that, but there have been cases where the courts interpreted making a temporary copy in RAM for the purposes of execution to be a copy. IIRC, that was in a case involving a EULA that pre-empted the rights granted consumers around copyrighted works.
Sik wrote:but modifying the software would probably still be illegal anyway.
Probably true. AFAIK, no one sued Catapult for patching games for the original Xband, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was legal.

Anyway, as far as hardware for enabling playing cartridges you own in an emulator is concerned, there's already the Retrode.

If you want to improve the netplay experience, specialized hardware is probably not the way to go since very few people are likely to buy said hardware.

Sik
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by Sik » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:49 pm

I was under the impression Catapult got permission though (making it legal for them).
Sik is pronounced as "seek", not as "sick".

Mask of Destiny
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by Mask of Destiny » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:18 pm

Sik wrote:I was under the impression Catapult got permission though (making it legal for them).
I suppose it's possible, but from this interview it sounds like they didn't have source code when they were working on the patches. It's certainly conceivable they could get permission, but not source code access. On the other hand, it also fits with them not asking. And really, what incentive would the copyright holders have to sue them? They were effectively making their games better for free. Copyright isn't like trademark law in which failing to defend it can cause you to lose rights as an IP owner.

Sik
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by Sik » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:03 am

When porting games it was common to not bother giving the source code and having to figure out how to recreate everything from scratch just from playing the game, on a tight deadline (no wonder so many ports are horrible). And that's a situation where you'd expect source code even more than here. What makes you think they'd give away the source code just to patch the game?

So yes, having permission to do it but not getting the source code seems sadly feasible for me. And if they didn't get permission they'd have gotten sued pretty quickly (even if it's "improving for free", don't assume companies make rational decisions).

EDIT: and incidentally, they were making patches for what were game ports as well. So for all we know the publishers maybe didn't even have the source code for the relevant port, but whoever they contracted to do the job.
Sik is pronounced as "seek", not as "sick".

OJC
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by OJC » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:09 am

Thanks for everyone's comments, interested read.

I had never heard of retrode 2 before so I appreciate that.

MintyTheCat
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by MintyTheCat » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:26 am

Sounds like a nutty idea. Try it out for your own interest but seems unlikely to have mass appeal. You have to ask yourself if this is technical interest or commercial interest? If it is simply out out technical interest then you never need to publish anything and simply try it out. I doubt that you have the technical skills and experience at this time to accomplish it though.

This site seems rather dead these days :)
UMDK Fanboy

jtn0514
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by jtn0514 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:08 pm

Did NOT see this thread prior to posting what i just did here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2403

I have created basically what you are asking for OJC... its just not communicating over ethernet/internet yet and i have acquired sources and docs from the original xband authors and helped get that stuff available a long while back. You could probably still find it posted online somewhere around.

Anyhow, the setup im using is the same style that xband did however i don't have as fine control over the software as xband modem did. Im using a game genie in place to hack out or modify code for now (not much but it gets the job done).

Xband functioned in the way of looking looking at the cart and then downloading a custom patch from their server (basically a BBS) based on what game was plugged in. Then once you found an opponent and got into the game session the patch function in a way that it looked at hook in points in cartridge ROM image and the modem acted itself as a more advanced game genie and modem in one.

They game patches were just mapped chunks of code that when the system tried to access a specific part of the cartridge it had to route through the asic on board and would execute the code they patched in. Basically it was for mapping in chunks of custom code pointing to the joystick routines and spitting joystick data to the modem registers. They also toggled video interlacing to keep systems sync'd with some crafty code (slow down or speed up a console with video mode change based on a timing bits sent back and fourth). /END history lesson..

As it sits now i have NBA JAM working over a 38400 baud serial connection which could be re directed over ethernet and its very stable up to 100ms Latency..

It works PURELY off joystick data to keep things sync'd and works well with random latency thrown in. There are other physical mods that could be done to the genesis to sync hardware on both systems but i havn't ventured down that as i havn't needed to just yet.

I wont get into specifics too much but i basically need a hardware guy to help shrink down the circuit i have and simplify it. Ive hacked 3-4 two player games to work with it and have tested them all. So far they all work well. I'm really a programmer by nature and hardware just isn't my main thing so thats why i'm hitting a brick wall currently with this project.

If anyone wants to lend a hand please let me know. just want to spread the fun with older consoles and give them a bit more life for a few that are interested.

KanedaFr
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by KanedaFr » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:41 pm

Oh! I was looking for years about technical details of the XBAnd
I even mailed one of the authors which share me some promo media but nothing like you !

Could you share with us all the docs (and software?) you was able to get ?

i'm very suprised to read they slown down video to trick the latency.
very ingenious but I wonder what happen to gameplay on some games....

jtn0514
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by jtn0514 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:52 pm

Xband source can be found here. Its not all of what i was able to get but its a good chunk.

There really is no snes code here its all genesis/megadrive

There is game patch source for super street fighter 2, nba jam, mk2. Its missing some vital stuff like hardware equates but most of the xband os code is kinda there.

http://wiki.superfamicom.org/snes/show/XBAND

OJC
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Re: Hardware and Software Developers Needed for Project

Post by OJC » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:09 pm

Hey jtn0514,

Interesting, I would like to help with the testing and perhaps help in any other areas I can.

Oliver

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